“People Crave Connection” – Interview with Caeley O'Shea, Warner Music Group

Barry: Getting to be around music is a uniting factor for everybody. What's the common ground? They all like our snacks. Perfect. Caeley, tell us about your current role at Warner Music.

Caeley O'Shea: Yeah, I'm a Director of Workplace Hospitality and Live Events. Yep. Uh, which I like to say is snacks and parties.

Barry: Perfect combination.

Caeley O'Shea: Yes, great.

Barry: What does that look like for you day-to-day?

Caeley O'Shea: Yeah, all sorts of things. Um, I manage our global workplace booking platform, um, a team that supports live events in our offices, a lot of our hospitality programs for visiting artists as well as our employees... um, lunch, coffee, all the fundamentals. Yeah. And then consult on spaces that we're building out internationally as well.

Barry: What did happen in the office today?

Caeley O'Shea: Oh yeah. Um, today we hosted Bernie Leadon, one of the founding members of the Eagles, for an in-office performance. Um, which was at the tail end of us having a boardroom in the office. So lots of kind of the corporate activities and then like a really lovely centered-on-the-music performance. Everybody came down, the space was packed out, and it's just so much fun to see that.

Barry: How many people?

Caeley O'Shea: Oh gosh, we didn't get an official headcount, but I'd say it was probably 150, if not more.

Barry: Cool. Founding member of the Eagles. Doing all the hits?

Caeley O'Shea: No, no, he's got a solo album coming out. We heard, um, a familiar tune in a different key. Okay. But it was delightful.

Barry: What was that one?

Caeley O'Shea: Um, don't... I got to look it up. Caeley's a fan though, don't worry. Right, right, so lyrics... it's just the title, who needs that? So overcome by emotion this exact moment!

Barry: Do you do many of those in the office?

Caeley O'Shea: We do, yeah. We try to. Yeah. And it's a really uniting moment we do whenever we can. When we have people who are visiting, um, it's really fun with new artists too or international artists.

Barry: Have you had any new artists come in that end up just exploding and you're like, "I saw them in a room of a hundred people"?

Caeley O'Shea: We do get a little bit of that. I mean, I'm at the three-year mark, so there are some that predated me, like Lizzo on site is a good one. Um, yeah, some fun ones.

Barry: And if we rewind the clock, do you remember your first paid job before you got to be in the room with the Eagles and Lizzo and all these people?

Caeley O'Shea: Gosh, um... I think I had, right after high school, a job cleaning the dorms at the state college in our city for conferences that took place over the summer. So he rents out the dorms, different groups come, um, and we flip the space. It was like a student gig.

Barry: I have so many questions, fire away! Was it uh... what was the... did you take anything from that job to today where you're like, "I learned when I was doing that that you should always XY whatever"?

Caeley O'Shea: I mean, that was a job which I think, um, early on in your career sometimes you learn that there are times where you just got to hang tight. Like, you do everything that there is to do, and you're not necessarily going to get extra credit for making up new stuff to do. And that's important because then when times are busy, you've got the bandwidth to do it. You haven't started a zillion other projects that you're now responsible for. So a little lesson in pacing, I think.

Barry: Okay, interesting. Um, the idea that there are certain things we take with us...

Caeley O'Shea: Mhm.

Barry: And there are certain things that we drop...

Caeley O'Shea: Yes.

Barry: I think is what you've just said around knowing that bandwidth and capacity might be stretched at certain times.

Caeley O'Shea: Yes. And your time gets squeezed. Mhm.

Barry: Um, and leaving space for when things are busier so that you're not trying to operate at 100% capacity all the time. How do you uh, balance that? How do you know... like how do you know you're at 100% or how do you know you're at 75, because there's another 30 coming, I'll be at 105 pretty soon!

Caeley O'Shea: Yeah, for me I can feel the squeeze in empathy, and that's the most important resource to conserve. So whenever I feel like I have less patience for myself, yeah, um, or like just that edge of not being in a really giving place for other people, that's when it's like "tap the brakes." Like that, you know, you got to save room for that.

Barry: So we go from flipping dorm rooms...

Caeley O'Shea: Yes.

Barry: To where you are with Warner Music.

Caeley O'Shea: Yes.

Barry: Is it a squiggly line between the two?

Caeley O'Shea: It's a squiggly line. It's a very straight line, it's a very squiggly line. Okay. Tell me more. Yeah. Um, I think gosh, right out of high school I thought I wanted to be a part of music festivals somewhere. Don't you like producing them? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, big parties, why not? Great music, everybody has a good experience. I think somewhere along the way I realized that that model of just mass entertainment is less rewarding than really seeing connections on a one-to-one experience. And career-wise I had time in the restaurant and food world. I had time, um, in film festivals working in hospitality for filmmakers. I did a battle of the bands for a little while, just a tiny town one. And then moved into the corporate events world at Nike World Headquarters, which is just a massive events operation. So many things happening on site, lots of teams supporting it. Really interesting activations of the space, and that was me learning to like operate at scale I think.

Barry: Yeah. I think it's interesting when you talk about the small group environment, you can curate the experience in a way that provides for deeper connection.

Caeley O'Shea: Yes. Uh-huh.

Barry: And that spark, like I think we've all had that experience of somebody says something to you and just a piece of the puzzle drops into place. And you are energized, but you also um, have like a bigger view of the world after that and you're more capable at solving problems or just seeing things in a model that's more effective for you. In the squiggly line journey, was there ever a moment where you turned a corner and you were like, "I'm not sure if what's then over here is what I'm looking for, but here I am." Uh, and maybe reflecting back on that, did it lead you somewhere where you are now that you're like, "I'm actually really grateful"?

Caeley O'Shea: Absolutely, absolutely. Tell us more. Um, I was at Nike Headquarters when COVID hit.

Barry: Oh wow.

Caeley O'Shea: And I was managing a team of AV technicians who did live events operations. COVID hit, our whole team went remote. Um, we... they... they're a really lovely talented group of people who figured out how to do high production Zoom calls. Like looking at different settings, able to produce things in a way that they'd never done before, which was a really cool experience. Um, but you know, the whole team got furloughed because it was COVID times and things are different and unpredictable. After that happened, I spent a few months working as a practice manager at a veterinary hospital. Just a total little left curve.

Barry: Was that a like, "okay, this is a 'here we are' moment"?

Caeley O'Shea: It was an opportunity. I don't know if you know this, but vet hospitals were booming during COVID...

Barry: Because everyone was buying... everybody got puppies! Yes, everybody got pets to keep them company.

Caeley O'Shea: Um, I did that for a little. I didn't... no, I held other people's puppies. It puts you off! You're like, "it's okay, I know it happens." I like puppies for 30 minutes and then I'll give them back, it's great. It's low maintenance. Um, so I spent some time in that space and then had the opportunity um, to come out to New York and to help build out a new conference center program for a financial client. Um, which I didn't think I'd be in the finance world either. But it was a really cool space and I got to bring a lot of the experience that I had in running a large-scale on-site conference operation to that buildout and to the programs that we envisioned for them, which was all new stuff. And then managed food and dining for them as well across North America. Didn't think I'd be there. And it was actually someone who I met while I was working there who hired me over to Warner Music Group. So if you had told high school me you're going to end up flipping the dormitory rooms, right? Yeah. That you want to be in music festivals and you're going to end up working with a major uh, music company, I wouldn't have been able to imagine the path that got me there.

Barry: How interesting. And do you find, um... do you find yourself reflecting on that?

Caeley O'Shea: Absolutely. You do? I do. I think it... because so much of our lives, not even work lives, just lives, are so fast-paced, it's like, what's next? What's next?

Barry: Yeah. I think lots of us, and I'd probably include myself in this, the intentional reflection is sometimes just not there because you're like, "Okay, what's next week?"

Caeley O'Shea: Yeah.

Barry: And you're kind of moving so fast that there's no space for it.

Caeley O'Shea: Yeah, I don't know if this is for everybody, but for myself I find that there are certain like tensions that I'm always negotiating. And internally a deep question for me that I'm always thinking about is what's the balance between the unfamiliar new experiences and consistency and routine? Because if you don't step outside your door ever, you're not going to meet new people. But if you do it every day, you're also not going to build on what you have in front of you. So finding that balance I think is like a deep question of life.

Barry: Yeah, and what's your... is there a process you have for that or do you just create head space and time to think about it?

Caeley O'Shea: And I think saying yes. You know, here we are, yeah.

Barry: Exactly. Where do you fall on that short term?

Caeley O'Shea: Thank you, me. Mhm. Um, I am probably more... well, I'm definitely the "say yes and we'll figure it out and it'll take us where it takes us" mhm. But I um, I probably don't create a whole lot of intentional reflective time. More now than I used to, but still probably not as much as I could.

Barry: Mhm. Which is interesting. And where do you fall on the new experiences versus familiar?

Caeley O'Shea: Absolutely vital. I think it's absolutely vital because there's something, and I don't know if you've experienced this... you know when you go to a new place that's unfamiliar?

Barry: Yeah.

Caeley O'Shea: Time seems to slow down a little bit.

Barry: Yeah.

Caeley O'Shea: Because you're taking in all the new stimulus and it's new to you. Whereas if you're somewhere that's familiar, you know the route to the coffee shop or you know the way to get to wherever you need to be and time goes so fast. So there's something interesting there around the unfamiliar almost makes things feel richer.

Barry: It does, uh, you know, and it just deepens. For me it's all about the sense of curiosity. Like for whatever reason I've just got a very curious nature. Yeah. But you can't get too bogged down in that right? Because if your whole world is everything new and novel all the time, how do you have the bandwidth to make decisions effectively?

Caeley O'Shea: Right. Sounds like an intervention! No, no, go easy on the curiosity! That's just it. I think that's a fascinating question. Like you have to have some stability, you have to have consistency, you have to have some level of familiarity, but we can't have that overrun the novel. I don't know if you've ever worked with the execs that like, eat the same thing for lunch every day?

Barry: Yes! Yes!

Caeley O'Shea: Like they make big decisions, they've got a lot of bandwidth to be able to make those decisions, but it's always the same sandwich.

Barry: I get a lot of heat... well yeah, I get some heat uh, for wearing something very similar to this every day. It's not the Steve Jobs thing, I just happen to have lots of these in my wardrobe. But there's definitely something around the ability, I think particularly now, to have a couple of bedrock habits almost that give you a good foundation to then go explore.

Caeley O'Shea: Yeah, if you think about decisions as... everyone requires a certain number of mental calories. Where are you going to spend them?

Barry: Yeah, it's a good way to think about it. How do you think about the change management process? Because it sounds like your appetite for the new, which inherently is going to bring some level of change, is high. But maybe on your team or some people you've worked with in the past, have you ever come across a scenario where that maybe wasn't as high for them as it is for you?

Caeley O'Shea: Oh yeah.

Barry: And then how do you... how have you balanced that or how have you made that work for everyone?

Caeley O'Shea: Yeah, I think um, there's a couple things that I focus on when we have change, whether it's intentional and like, driven from our side or just nature of business. Um, communication. But I also like to be vulnerable with people so that they know what's driving the change. Like that their best intent is at the heart of it. Um, that the decision-making process is somewhat visible, because people will assume that there might be a reason that could be incorrect for why you're making a decision. I think between those two things you can build rapport with your employees.

Barry: Have you... I think the "why" of it is for me, in my experience, is the key decision.

Caeley O'Shea: Mhm. Yeah.

Barry: Around, okay well, if there's going to be change, just communicating the why. And I think even if people don't agree with it, at least they understand the rationale for it, which makes it easier. Yes. You know. Yeah, yeah. So the uh... the pace of change, I'd be in your world, have you seen that ramp?

Caeley O'Shea: Yes. Okay. Tell me more. Continuously. Tell me more! Yes. Um, we're in perpetual change land.

Barry: Okay, and you feel like it's getting faster?

Caeley O'Shea: Absolutely.

Barry: And uh, for want of a better term, more seismic, or are you just finding what is that?

Caeley O'Shea: I feel like we're training for a triathlon. Oh yeah, okay. We started with like some gentle workouts and we just... every year it kind of ramps up. But that's the pace of the world now, right? Especially in media spaces.

Barry: Yeah, because it's a really interesting space. Because I would imagine, and I'd love to hear your take on it, because of the breadth of what media now is... absolutely... how does that impact... does it impact your day-to-day?

Caeley O'Shea: It does. Um, from our perspective, from my perspective, our team is there to support the rest of the business. Yeah. Um, on the workplace side, we're not generating income generally. Um, we're caretaking for the people who are. Which means we're looking at what their work styles are and how we can support those... um, hopefully seeing them as humans and finding ways to support that, making the office a place that's amenable to them as whole people. And I think especially in the arts that's really important for people to be seen authentically.

Barry: How do you... do you craft that? Like it sounds like you're very intentional about it. What are the things that you've done to make people feel that?

Caeley O'Shea: Yeah, um, well all sorts of things. But I don't think of it as us crafting so much as I think of it as listening. Okay. And then responding. Yeah. And as proactively as possible. Yeah. It's a really silly little thing, but we had a bunch of ponchos left over from an event not too long ago. Okay. And the weather kind of turned midday and we put them out on our reception desk and told folks like, "Hey, you didn't remember an umbrella? Me neither. Here's a bunch of extra ponchos." And people loved it! Because you know, it's just like a little human thing for them. Yeah, I think that stuff's big. Um, but also understanding how they do their work, which requires having credibility with artists and knowing how we can manage a space so it doesn't feel like it's just a corporate office space when artists come in. It's like, we can support them. We can support our partners in having conversations in our offices that feel like they're legit, credible conversations.

Barry: Yeah, so they're reflective of the audience but also the purpose of people being there.

Caeley O'Shea: Yeah, yeah. And just you know, nobody wants to go in... okay, let me rephrase that. There are many artists who I imagine would not enjoy going to sit in a conference room with fluorescent lights.

Barry: I feel bad about... correct!

Caeley O'Shea: Right, but we have lounge spaces that have soft seating, we have lamps, we have full carpets, we'll put some weird art in there if we have it around. And when we do that and somebody hosts an artist on site, it feels like it's a real conversation and they can trust that we're going to caretake the art that they're working on, because it's so personal.

Barry: Yeah it is, yeah. It's different than a lot of other business endeavors. It can be very personal for the artists involved.

Caeley O'Shea: Yeah. And they're putting... well, they're putting out their art. Exactly. And it's like they're laying themselves pretty bare. Exactly. And it's got to be treated that way respectfully. It's by nature it's a human thing. So you don't want to hand it off to somebody who's going to treat it like a product and kick it off into the world. You want somebody who understands what you're trying to be.

Barry: Yeah it's really interesting, isn't it? It's probably a thing that's existed for a very long time, but that tension between the arts world and the commercial world is a real balancing act, because ultimately it's the music business. Yeah, it's the entertainment business, the music is that it. What you're talking about there in terms of the curation of a space is... does that tension ever show up for you?

Caeley O'Shea: Sure, all the time. Yeah. Okay. And I think knowing... again, we have a really diverse population that we take care of and being able to communicate between different groups. Like the difference between... I don't want to call out anybody in a particular team, it's not a career-limiting answer right? Some of the corporate folks that are maybe used to a certain kind of in-office experience...

Barry: Yes. Versus some of the label folks that are used to a different lifestyle.

Caeley O'Shea: Yes. Having services that...

Barry: This is a great answer Caeley, you're not upsetting anybody right!

Caeley O'Shea: Great, um... having services and spaces that serve everybody. Yeah. Um, and where we can kind of mediate the mutual encounters so that... whoever's... somebody's hosting investors and everybody's in suits, and we have some like young rappers on site, we navigate how those groups interact with each other so that they both get what they need.

Barry: Do you ever look at any of those meetings... uh, maybe you're in the room, maybe you're not in the room, and it's an amazing positive collision of worlds? It's like, well this is cool.

Caeley O'Shea: Maybe a little bit, yeah. Sometimes with the in-office performances we see a little bit.

Barry: Yeah, it makes sense. It's the um... it's kind of speaking to lots of different communities. And if you think about the people that work in the business as a community, yes, you mentioned earlier on around the communication side of just bringing people together and how you work with that. Mhm. Talk to us a little bit more about the internal community in the business and how you view it.

Caeley O'Shea: Yeah, incredibly diverse and a lot of really good people. I think in this industry specifically, the people who are in it, similar to the artists, they're in it because they care about it. They're not in it because it's... I don't know what they went to college for necessarily, maybe that's not the right answer... um, they're not in it just because they want to get a paycheck. Okay, I'll say that.

Barry: So there's a passion.

Caeley O'Shea: It's a passion, yeah. And it's a spectrum too. There are folks who've been around for decades who have had some really different experiences than people who just joined. Um, there's a lot of, I think, you see the tension in changes in the media world as well. So folks who are more streamer-native and they understand how relationships with streamers might have a different impact than late night shows. You know, there's a lot of variation in that generationally, um, yeah, and really different functions and different cultures.

Barry: And so what's the common ground?

Caeley O'Shea: Um, they all like our snacks! Perfect. No, I think food, right? Food is good. Um, I think whenever we have in-office performances, getting to be around music is a uniting factor for everybody on our end.

Barry: And how do you manage... do you have remote communities that work in the business and hybrid, or what?

Caeley O'Shea: We have some remote individuals, but we're mostly on site. Okay. Five days a week, four days a week. Okay, mhm.

Barry: So has that... have you seen... have you had to work harder to keep the common ground common when you don't have everyone together in the way that maybe they were before?

Caeley O'Shea: Yes. 2020. Yes. And I think, um, especially with new hires, if you have folks who are hybrid or remote it's hard. But then again, that's the way a lot of the work world feels now anyway. People work asynchronously, we work internationally. Um, we have teams that are distributed across broad geographic regions. So I think it's hard regardless of whether people are remote or not because they'll be in different offices.

Barry: What's the... if I was to give you a magic wand... I don't have one, caveat, don't have this... but if I did have it and I say, "Caeley, you can solve for the one biggest challenge in your role," what would that be?

Caeley O'Shea: Yeah, oh... caveat, I do not have this. Yeah. Um, I would love to imbue the broader working world with more compassion for people who are in different functions. Okay. Because I think that it's more common now for folks to make assumptions about people who work in different ways than they do. And to the point of being a distributed team, some people being hybrid, having connections that allow you to give people grace, um, I think is really important for resilience and for teamwork.

Barry: Do you find that there's... and this is not your current role, just more generally in the working world I guess... do you find that there is a greater comfort level for people to turn up in whatever way they are that day? Good, bad, indifferent, hard day, easier day, productive day, not so productive. Do you find that there is a greater, I guess, maybe acceptance of "that's just because we're humans now" than before, or like how does that feel for you?

Caeley O'Shea: I think there's two layers to that question. Um, culturally as individuals, I do think there's a lot more grace. Okay. Systemically, um, and economically, especially with large companies seeing less predictable paths for work... I know a lot of big companies we see notices about layoffs happening, that really erodes trust. And I think that makes it hard for people to show up authentically.

Barry: Right, so it's both.

Caeley O'Shea: Yeah, it's really interesting. Trust, I think, like we talk about how ultimately organizations... I think we've mentioned a couple of times that they're accumulations of individuals. Yes. So like there is a business and that business has a brand and that is a commercial entity, but really it's a collection of people. Yeah, you know. And institutions are built on shared understandings. Yeah. And if you don't have a strong culture to reinforce what the values are, people can make assumptions or they can just be disconnected.

Barry: Do you find that... yeah, it's the disconnection piece that I think is just one of the core problems that people need to think about solving for.

Caeley O'Shea: Yes. Because I don't know, certainly in the last few years obviously you know, when remote work has become more widespread, there's certainly a... there is a disconnect definitely functionally between people, but also between people and the organization. Yes. And perhaps that's accentuated at a time where I agree with you, I think trust is eroded. So when there's less trust but people still obviously need to pay the bills and do all that... trying to keep the "why", yes, between the business and the individual and between the individuals in the business. Yes. And I think when you have an established company with a really strong brand, you can lean on that... okay... to support the uniting factors. I think the music world, people are excited about music, that's uniting for all of us. Nike has its own culture that people are really diehard about. If you don't have an established brand, it is like link by link you're building relationships within your organization for people to feel connected to each other.

Barry: Has there been anything... I'm trying to think of a time stamp for this, maybe there is no time stamp... but is there anything at the moment that you find surprising in your role and in your work? You thought it's going to go that way, but it's actually 180, or at least 90s maybe?

Caeley O'Shea: What I'm really pleased to see, and I don't know if it's surprising for me but I think for some people it is, is just how much people want to connect with each other. You'd think that it'd be easy to be a little pessimistic, to be kind of siloed and to want to maintain your own space, but all the people I talk to are excited to be together, even with their co-workers.

Barry: Yeah, I mean even with... especially with their co-workers! It's not their friends, it's not their family.

Caeley O'Shea: They're like, "I want to spend time with the people I work with for fun." Yeah, and so we've really seen that as well. The actual appetite for people to be together. And obviously because you know, we couldn't for a period of our lives, we just couldn't do it. But now more than ever there's just this appetite for people to be in the same space. It's just a shared understanding it brings. And there's so many... well, we would see so many benefits to it, but you're seeing that as well.

Barry: Absolutely, and even an unbelievable vehicle in the music, because it's culturally binding for the business.

Caeley O'Shea: Yes. It's socially binding because of the nature of the art I suppose. Mhm, yeah. People crave connection. Which is great because you can imagine them getting comfortable with having their own space and having autonomy. But I don't think it has as high of a value as people would have expected.

Barry: Yeah, that's interesting. So because of the shift, you would have expected it to maybe people get comfortable exactly and not want to be together. Right. But actually it's the opposite.

Caeley O'Shea: Yep. Huh.

Barry: Do you include yourself in that cohort?

Caeley O'Shea: I do. Well, I don't think I was ever like a person who wanted to stay home in my pajamas.

Barry: Yeah, okay. Even on a Monday? Even on a Friday?

Caeley O'Shea: Even on a Monday! Um, as we think about what's coming next, and obviously see I think what's really interesting about the world that you inhabit is that we hear so much about AI... AI everywhere, it's everywhere... yes, in the people world and also in the music world. I don't know what's happening. How is it impacting you? Is it impacting you?

Barry: Sure. Um, I think we have some pre-prepared statements on this. I probably... we'll just get those pre-prepared...

Caeley O'Shea: Touch on... um, yeah, I think it... I think it impacts everybody. I think, um, you know, it's interesting to see the way that we work shift, yeah. In that we're less constrained by specific, um, kind of manual tasks. Yeah. And that allows people to think more strategically, um, to kind of level up the way that they're managing their own workload. I heard somebody say not that long ago that in the future, managers won't just be managing individuals, they'll be managing individuals and AI agents as well. Um, so I think we'll see some of that.

Barry: I think what will be interesting is to see how AI actually impacts the humans being back at the center of the business, because that's one of our beliefs. I just think it will automate what it can automate... uh-huh... and then it will just put the things that cannot be automated... creative creativity, storytelling, strategic judgments, decision making, emotional intelligence... all of that will become so important because all the other things are automated.

Caeley O'Shea: And cultural texture, right? If AI functions by predictive learning and it's built upon a certain perspective, being able to have an alternate coherent perspective that people can really feel the texture of is going to have a lot of value, which is storytelling.

Barry: Yeah, mhm. And it's the soft skills part of like, no automation or no piece of AI can truly replace the ability to have a human conversation.

Caeley O'Shea: Absolutely, and people be in the same room and feel the energy. Mhm. Which is great news for both of us I think. Yeah, we see it coming.

Barry: Um, last question. Okay. It's just around the idea of the impact of your role. Uh-huh. Is that something you think about... uh, at some point in time you may move on, you may not. You've no plans, we haven't discussed this! Um, but if you were to move on to a different role in the company or wherever the future might take you, do you think about the impact of your role when that should happen, and do you think about what you'd like that impact to be?

Caeley O'Shea: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I haven't thought about it. When I think about it right now, um, I would hope that my role has been... which was created when I joined too, it was brand new, so not following anybody's footsteps for it. Um, I would hope that that role continues to have a connecting, unifying, culture-facilitating impact on the business. And my favorite game is like "have you met?", for people who work together. Whether it's personal interests, whether it's somebody who works on something in a role that's helpful to somebody else, they didn't know we had that person in our company. Being able to connect people is not really part of my job scope, but I hope that that legacy continues to have an impact for everybody in the company.

Barry: There's something really special about having uh, a role that influences people connecting with each other. Yes. Because you can... it smooths out so many wrinkles, the legacy of them just meeting in person, just finding some common ground. It's that puzzle piece dropping in, how you see the world, and it's also your load getting a little bit lighter too. Caeley, thank you very much for your time.

Caeley O'Shea: Yeah, my pleasure.

Barry: Like I said, not a career-limiting conversation hopefully, and uh, yeah, it's been a pleasure, thank you.

Caeley O'Shea: It's been great. Thank you.

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